

I Am a Strange Loop [Hofstadter, Douglas R] on desertcart.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. I Am a Strange Loop Review: Definitely buy for explanation of Godel and core ideas, but don't expect rigorous arguments - 5 stars alone for his explanation of Godel's First Incompleteness Theorem. Godel's proof itself has a lot of boilerplate that I've never been able (let alone motivated enough) to read, but I did read Professor Braithwaite's foreword to Godel's proof, and found that Hofstadter instills the same level of understanding in much simpler, more conversational language. The whole book really is worth the price for that chapter alone. Overall, I think he reaches convincing, rational conclusions. After reading the whole book and thinking a lot about the core questions, I feel like I have a solid understanding of my own sense of self and my ability to perceive. However, many of the arguments he used felt overly allegorical, or otherwise unconvincing. I often had to convince myself of his conclusions with other arguments because his didn't always address the issues that came to my mind. I met a woman who's pursuing her PhD in math at Stanford, and she said that several of her friends in the department also read the book and similarly felt that the arguments could have been improved. A lot of this is probably because his goal wasn't to write a list of theorems and proofs. I think such a list would take maybe 30 pages, but on the other hand I enjoyed the opportunity to read someone with such a unique, open voice and worldview. As for the details, Hofstadter shows how the ability of the mind to compose complex symbols and perceive itself as an actor practically necessitates the creation of a reflexive "I" symbol. I thought the connection with Turing completeness was excellent and in some sense perfectly analogous, and should have been more explicitly central to his explanation of why there doesn't need to be any evolutionary benefit to a sense of self (it's just a side-effect of symbolic processing and looking for the causes of effects). My two main logical issues were: 1. I didn't ever see the need for a "strange loop" with arbitrary levels of recursion. I think the existence of the "I" symbol to refer to ourselves (just like the "potato" symbol refers to a potato) is a sufficient explanation on its own, and when we feel like we're reflecting deeper and deeper we're actually just conjuring up our "I" symbol over and over. 2. I think he should have drawn a sharper distinction between the core, self-referential "I" concept and the set of memories that make up a personality. I got the impression that he makes that distinction in his head, but in the book it didn't feel sufficiently explicated. Specifically, I think some of his arguments would have been much cleaner or even more robust had he restricted himself to speaking of the simple "I" symbol. But I'd still 100% tell my younger self to read it! Review: Forget the Physicalist Functionalism - I came to this book looking for a digital version of GEB, that doesn't exist at the time of this writing. Looking at some of the reviews I thought I might be getting a rehash of the concepts covered in GEB. Fortunately, that is not the case. Douglas Hofstadter starts the book with some reflections on things that influenced him in his early years. I found these stories a nice bit of insight into the mind of Douglas Hofstadter. About a quarter of the way into the book he states: "The thesis of this book is that in a non-embryonic, non-infantile human brain, there is a special type of abstract structure or pattern that plays the same role as does that precise alignment of layers of paper and glue -- an abstract pattern that gives rise to what *feels* like a self". To add a little context, the precise alignment of layers of papers and glue he is referring to is a stack of envelopes that felt like there was a marble in them..., an illusion. So, in other words, Douglas Hofstadter wants to set about to convincing us that the "self-ness" we experience as humans is an illusion. The next hundred or so pages sets forth in describing how no mathematical system is totally complete. I am not sure why Douglas went in that direction, as I took the obligatory re-read of that section when Douglas suggests, and another read for this review, yet I still can not see the reason. That is not to say it is poorly written. I felt as if I was in the hands of an expert as Douglas walked through the proof of Euclid's theorem for those who have no exposure to number theory before embarking on explaining what exactly it was that Godel did. Despite my not fully understanding the purpose of the mathematics, Douglas Hofstadter was able to convey to me that consciousness is a strange loop and it got there by self-reference. This aligns well with at least one theory I've heard before, found in Ken Wilber's "Spectrum of Consciousness", but I think goes a bit beyond that when Douglas says that in his model the "I" can be in more than one body. Later in the book he expresses with a good amount of certainty that in the future this proves to be true, just as he is certain that we will eventually refer to machines with pronoun's like "who" as they become more conscious. And they will eventually become conscious, as Douglas believes that past a certain point in neural complexity, consciousness gets thrown in as a bonus. I'm not sure how close all this is to Physical Functionalism but the research I did failed to find "Physical", "Functionalism" and "strange loops" or "self-reference" mentioned in the same paragraph anywhere. Some of the philosophers Douglas mentions, including one who was a graduate student of his, however, gets mention with just the "physical"-"functionalism" search. Douglas does mention that he is only discussing some matters at the end of the book for the "consciousness philosophers". I believe that is where the discussion of the Inverted Spectrum and Freewill comes in. My overall assessment of this book is 5 stars because it accomplishes what it sets out to do, and it does so very elegantly giving a nice bit of insight into how the author came upon his thoughts along the way.





| Best Sellers Rank | #34,426 in Books ( See Top 100 in Books ) #13 in Consciousness & Thought Philosophy #93 in History & Philosophy of Science (Books) #124 in Cognitive Psychology (Books) |
| Customer Reviews | 4.4 4.4 out of 5 stars (1,015) |
| Dimensions | 6 x 1.13 x 9.25 inches |
| Edition | Reprint |
| ISBN-10 | 0465030793 |
| ISBN-13 | 978-0465030798 |
| Item Weight | 2.31 pounds |
| Language | English |
| Print length | 436 pages |
| Publication date | July 8, 2008 |
| Publisher | Basic Books |
G**C
Definitely buy for explanation of Godel and core ideas, but don't expect rigorous arguments
5 stars alone for his explanation of Godel's First Incompleteness Theorem. Godel's proof itself has a lot of boilerplate that I've never been able (let alone motivated enough) to read, but I did read Professor Braithwaite's foreword to Godel's proof, and found that Hofstadter instills the same level of understanding in much simpler, more conversational language. The whole book really is worth the price for that chapter alone. Overall, I think he reaches convincing, rational conclusions. After reading the whole book and thinking a lot about the core questions, I feel like I have a solid understanding of my own sense of self and my ability to perceive. However, many of the arguments he used felt overly allegorical, or otherwise unconvincing. I often had to convince myself of his conclusions with other arguments because his didn't always address the issues that came to my mind. I met a woman who's pursuing her PhD in math at Stanford, and she said that several of her friends in the department also read the book and similarly felt that the arguments could have been improved. A lot of this is probably because his goal wasn't to write a list of theorems and proofs. I think such a list would take maybe 30 pages, but on the other hand I enjoyed the opportunity to read someone with such a unique, open voice and worldview. As for the details, Hofstadter shows how the ability of the mind to compose complex symbols and perceive itself as an actor practically necessitates the creation of a reflexive "I" symbol. I thought the connection with Turing completeness was excellent and in some sense perfectly analogous, and should have been more explicitly central to his explanation of why there doesn't need to be any evolutionary benefit to a sense of self (it's just a side-effect of symbolic processing and looking for the causes of effects). My two main logical issues were: 1. I didn't ever see the need for a "strange loop" with arbitrary levels of recursion. I think the existence of the "I" symbol to refer to ourselves (just like the "potato" symbol refers to a potato) is a sufficient explanation on its own, and when we feel like we're reflecting deeper and deeper we're actually just conjuring up our "I" symbol over and over. 2. I think he should have drawn a sharper distinction between the core, self-referential "I" concept and the set of memories that make up a personality. I got the impression that he makes that distinction in his head, but in the book it didn't feel sufficiently explicated. Specifically, I think some of his arguments would have been much cleaner or even more robust had he restricted himself to speaking of the simple "I" symbol. But I'd still 100% tell my younger self to read it!
C**N
Forget the Physicalist Functionalism
I came to this book looking for a digital version of GEB, that doesn't exist at the time of this writing. Looking at some of the reviews I thought I might be getting a rehash of the concepts covered in GEB. Fortunately, that is not the case. Douglas Hofstadter starts the book with some reflections on things that influenced him in his early years. I found these stories a nice bit of insight into the mind of Douglas Hofstadter. About a quarter of the way into the book he states: "The thesis of this book is that in a non-embryonic, non-infantile human brain, there is a special type of abstract structure or pattern that plays the same role as does that precise alignment of layers of paper and glue -- an abstract pattern that gives rise to what *feels* like a self". To add a little context, the precise alignment of layers of papers and glue he is referring to is a stack of envelopes that felt like there was a marble in them..., an illusion. So, in other words, Douglas Hofstadter wants to set about to convincing us that the "self-ness" we experience as humans is an illusion. The next hundred or so pages sets forth in describing how no mathematical system is totally complete. I am not sure why Douglas went in that direction, as I took the obligatory re-read of that section when Douglas suggests, and another read for this review, yet I still can not see the reason. That is not to say it is poorly written. I felt as if I was in the hands of an expert as Douglas walked through the proof of Euclid's theorem for those who have no exposure to number theory before embarking on explaining what exactly it was that Godel did. Despite my not fully understanding the purpose of the mathematics, Douglas Hofstadter was able to convey to me that consciousness is a strange loop and it got there by self-reference. This aligns well with at least one theory I've heard before, found in Ken Wilber's "Spectrum of Consciousness", but I think goes a bit beyond that when Douglas says that in his model the "I" can be in more than one body. Later in the book he expresses with a good amount of certainty that in the future this proves to be true, just as he is certain that we will eventually refer to machines with pronoun's like "who" as they become more conscious. And they will eventually become conscious, as Douglas believes that past a certain point in neural complexity, consciousness gets thrown in as a bonus. I'm not sure how close all this is to Physical Functionalism but the research I did failed to find "Physical", "Functionalism" and "strange loops" or "self-reference" mentioned in the same paragraph anywhere. Some of the philosophers Douglas mentions, including one who was a graduate student of his, however, gets mention with just the "physical"-"functionalism" search. Douglas does mention that he is only discussing some matters at the end of the book for the "consciousness philosophers". I believe that is where the discussion of the Inverted Spectrum and Freewill comes in. My overall assessment of this book is 5 stars because it accomplishes what it sets out to do, and it does so very elegantly giving a nice bit of insight into how the author came upon his thoughts along the way.
D**W
most parts were very interesting
The concepts are very interesting and it makes you think about what is consciousness and reality. That part of the book I loved. There is also a very long section that is very deep in mathematics. I tried to comprehend that part and I got a general sense about where the author was going with the math but as a non-mathematician, I could have done without that. So, in reality, I loved a little over 1/2 of the book and the other half (mostly math) I could have done without. I would think, however, if you have a lot of interest in math you would get even more out of this book. Even beyond the math however, the book is very interesting and it really makes you think. It definitely gives your brain a work out pondering the concepts.
A**ー
Touretzky, D.S. "COMMOM LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation." で演習的学習を進めていたところ,Chapter 8: Recursionの8.15の項で,再帰的プログラミングの理解を促進するための参考資料として,Hofstadter, D. R.の "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid." が紹介されており,Amazonで検索したところ,近作である本書もあることを知り,両方を購入して,Lisp の再帰的プログラミングの学習を進める際の参考資料として,面白そうなところをチラチラと眺めるような形で利用している。そんな皮層を撫で回すような利用法ではあるのだが,再帰(recursion)とは,Lisp のみならず,音楽,絵画・美術,数学,さらにはさまざまな日常場面において,それらの根底に,類似のあるいは相似の構造性を秘めている「精神活動枠組み」なのだ,という著者の主張に触れ,その「間口」と「奥行き」の深さに,改めて気付かされたように感じる。ただし,著者の記述展開は,筆者の読み取りの不十分さに起因するものかもしれないが,「間口」の広さの強調の方にかなり偏しているような印象を持った。それでも,あまり哲学的に深いことを考えないで,紹介されているトピックスや,さまざまなジャンルの図や画像を眺めるだけでも,Lispにおける再帰的プログラミングの理解の深化には有用であるように感じている。ただし,以上は,門外漢による斜め読みの途中報告であるということをお断りしておく。念の為。
C**N
Um bom livro com questões interessantes sobre o funcionamento da mente e simbolos mentais. Discussões filosóficas interessantes, utilizando argumentos científicos em alguns pontos. Trata de maneira mais fácil de ler algumas questões levantadas no GEB e outras também interessntes. Capa texturizada e imagens coloridas dão ao livro uma boa finalização.
T**S
Having enjoyed the author’s ‘Godel, Escher Bach’ some years ago, and spurred on by a deepening interest in human nature, I opened this book with a sense of expectation. I wasn’t disappointed, and found the ideas both deeply thought-provoking and highly satisfying. If you are interested in the enigma of ‘consciousness’, and are open to exploring concepts from multiple viewpoints, this book will intrigue and entertain you. Somewhat like riding an intellectual roller-coaster.
D**.
Excellent
J**R
Hoffstadter revient près de 35 ans après Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid avec un autre livre sur un sujet très voisin. C'est une sorte de livre de fin de carrière (ou même de retraité) qui traite des mêmes problèmes que GEB. En substance, Hoffstadter regrette que les gens qui ont lu GEB se soient intéressés à tous les exemples dont il a parlé, mais sans forcément s'intéresser de très près au fond de son propos. Son sujet (noyé dans un feu d'artifice de considérations souvent brillantes) c'était la conscience en tant que mécanisme auto-référentiel, en tant que boucle capable de s'analyser elle-même de manière récursive, en tant que système de perception qui se perçoit lui même, ou que système de modélisation qui se modélise lui-même. Il regrette que ses lecteurs se soient plus préoccupés des illustration de ses idées que de ses idées elles-mêmes: i.e. qu'ils se soient plus intéressés à sa démonstration du théorème de Gödel, à l'auto-référence en mathématiques, au codage et au stockage de l'information sémantique avec auto-référence [ainsi que des détails de la façon dont ces mêmes principes sont implémentés dans le vivant avec le code génétique, qui est si bien expliqué dans GEB]. Là, c'est un texte de retraité, avec un ton plus intimiste, parsemés d'histoires de sa vie. Un bilan de sa carrière passée sur le sujet (à l'ombre du succès de GEB), avec plein d’anecdotes personnelles, et d'impressions personnelles sur divers sujets qui lui semblent importants. Il réfléchit sur la conscience et l'esprit humain. Quoique sa réflexion soit souvent pleine de mathématiques, il s'agit plus de philosophie que de science, puisqu'elle est en dehors de l'expérimentation et des sciences dures. Il a lu les neuro-scientifiques, attentivement même, mais son propos est ailleurs. Il traite de questions qui sont souvent d'un ordre plus élevé que les questions traitées par les sciences cognitives dures. ((Quoique de temps en temps il s'aventure sur les terres où les neuro-scientifiques sont en train de faire des avancées à pas de géant, et là, son approche est parfois un peu moins convaincante, parce qu'un peu plus immatérielle, bref, plus philosophique que scientifique. Mais il faut aussi reconnaître à sa décharge que les grandes avancées des neurosciences n'étaient pas encore vraiment là au moment où il a élaboré ses idées)). Il est très clair, il prend son temps pour expliquer doucement, mais il va assez loin. Au final, il est excellent sur les domaines mathématiques, le codage, la représentation de l'information. On arrive à comprendre assez bien ce qu'il pense de la conscience quand il aborde les implications des représentations capables d'auto-références, de méta-définitions et de méta-méta-définitions (récursives) ; et quand il décrit les systèmes de perception à base de classes et de sous-classes capables d'étendre leur répertoire de catégories de manière arbitrairement étendu. C'est assez bien vu, et assez attirant comme vision des choses... C'est donc un cocktail au départ de mathématiques, de philosophie et de théorie de l'esprit et de la conscience. C'est un peu étrange au début, et puis on s'y habitue, et ça devient de plus en plus passionnant au fil des pages. D'autres aspects de ses idées sont plus "délibérément humanistes" que scientifiques à mon sens: ce sont plus des partis pris philosophiques de voir l'être humain et la vie sous un angle positif, plutôt qu'une position scientifique ; mais ça reste intéressant à lire, quoique pour d'autres raisons. C'est bien amené, le personnage est intéressant, je me sens proche de ses valeurs positives, humanistes et rationnelles et de son approche de la conscience. J'aime bien Hoffstadter -depuis l'époque des Methamagical Themas de Scientific American... Il mélange pas mal de naïveté et de fraîcheur, avec une grande vivacité d'esprit et une énorme puissance d'analyse, un côté humaniste et empathique, un esprit mathématique qui se fascine pour les choses imbriquées, intriquées, récursives, complexes et tordues (et de préférence quand elles ont des conséquences bizarroïdes) ... Il ne se laisse pas enfermer par des frontières, il passe sans effort des mathématiques à la psychologie cognitive puis à la philosophie avant de retourner à la science... Il en tire des conséquences parfois improbables -parfois moins que scientifiques- mais qui donnent du carburant pour la pensée et qui restent toujours intéressantes et que j'ai toujours lu avidement. On n'arrive pas à une certitude expérimentale sur la plupart des questions fondamentales qui sont posées et auxquelles il donne des réponses partielles (d'ailleurs la conscience et les autres grandes questions soulevées ne sont pas vraiment des questions expérimentales, la conscience n'est pas très définissable scientifiquement et sa présence ou son absence n'est pas une question qui se prête à une démonstration expérimentale, c'est tout au plus quelque chose qu'on ressent en notre for intérieur). D'autres sources récentes semblent confirmer à posteriori certaines intuitions de Hoffstadter. e.g.: l'article tout récent de "Cerveau et Psycho" intitulé "crises d'épilepsie et troubles de la conscience" de Stéphane Charpier (Jan 2013): certaines crises d'épilepsie partielle complexe ("le petit mal") se manifestent par un effondrement de la conscience sans autre manifestation physique; voire une poursuite des activités de l'individu, mécaniquement, comme un zombi, mais sans la conscience. L'étude du moment où la conscience disparaît (et réapparaît) permet d'en savoir plus sur la nature du phénomène. Les aires corticales associatives qui font le post-traitement des entrées sensorielles semblent centrales (les aires associatives font le traitement secondaire des données sensorielles et effectuent ainsi la perception, c'est à dire la mise en catégories, classes, et sous-classes des objets détectés à partir des données sensorielles brutes, c'est la différence par exemple entre voir et percevoir). C'est bien ces aires qui sont responsables de la perception de sa propre perception, et donc de la "boucle étrange" qu'Hoffstadter considère comme la conscience. Bref, "I am a strange loop" a une approche étonnante, pleine d'esprit, pleine de rebondissement dans tous les domaines de la connaissance, et que j'ai trouvée rafraîchissante. Un livre qui aère l'esprit.
ترست بايلوت
منذ أسبوعين
منذ شهرين